10 Things I Don't Like About Church
821. Potlucks. Need I say more? I will anyway. I don't want to sample Sister Louise's casserole, knowing that she has 19 cats living with her in her double-wide.
2. Preachers who say, "God told me that we should ___________." ex. build a building. I am leary of preachers who claim a unique conversational dialogue with God that the rest of us are seemingly not privy to. Often times they should substitute these words: "I would really like it if we __________________". I believe, for the most part, that would be much more accurate.
3. The weird smell. In churches built in the 50's and 60's there is a distinctive weird odor. Kinda' of a musty, old paper, old people smell.
4. The Church Face. It's a shame to me that we always seem to have to wear a mask in church. The very place where people should be able to expose their hurts is sometimes the most dangerous place of all to do so, especially for church leadership.
5. Vacation Bible School. I know, I know. What could I possibly have against this wonderful activity? VBS is for kids who like to do organized activities with other kids. I was always more of the do-my-own-thing kind of kid. I could hardly wait for it to be over so I could ride my bike, etc.
6. The Fortress Mentality. "It's us against the world." Although I understand where this came from, it seems polar opposite to how Jesus conducted his life. If Jesus is the leader, it would make sense to live like him. I'm not convinced he would be a member of any church I've ever gone to, although I can't say this with certainty.
7. Intolerance of other denominations. I've been to Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, 7th Day Adventist, Lutheran, and other kinds of churches. When you boil it all down, it seems that we're all basically preaching the same message with small variances based on style and taste. We spend a lot of money to be separated. If we came together, some of that money could be spent doing the kinds of things that Jesus did on a daily basis. We throw stones at each other frequently.
8. Arrogant leadership. There is a tier system in most churches. When people come into 'power' in church, whether it be a pastoral role, or a deacon, elder, or bishop, many are not capable of maintaining humility. The people always suffer for this.
9. Inability of pastors to not preach on a given Sunday. I've seen pastors bear down on their subject matter with a spirit of indifference about what is really going on in the room. Sometimes you need to throw away the script and follow what God is doing at the moment. The people won't die if you don't preach a sermon every now and then.
10. Pushing toward reaching more people when the church is not ministering to who they already have. In the name of evangelism (reaching beyond the church walls) oftentimes the people who are already there get lost in the shuffle. For example, if you're a pastor who is attempting to reach the masses in the community through a major building program, and you can't even minister to your staff, what do you think you're going to do with all of the other people out there if they finally decide to show up?
Do I sound bitter? That's not my intention. I was a pastor for 15 years, and am what I consider a casualty of the church. I point most of my anger toward one man, who broke my spirit. An avalanche of huge life mistakes followed, many of which I must take responsibility for. As a former pastor, it's an interesting journey to try to get your faith back, when the very place that you normally would go to do that (church) is the very place of your deepest pain. To be honest, I can't even read my Bible anymore. Too many reminders of my past life in church leadership.
The book of my life is not finished. I have no idea how it will turn out. I do know that I'm in a profound season of anger, bitterness, and doubt. Most church people won't admit this. I'm not expecting a gold star for this admission, but I want to at least have the guts to express most of what I'm thinking.
I would like to know how you feel about this too. Don't sugarcoat it. There's nothing to be gained from that.
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Stan, I agree with you greatly on this. I absolutely consider myself a Christian, but I have a massive problem with organized religion. I could add many more to your list of things I hate about church. For one, those that tell you you must tithe X amount of your income. I am pretty certain the Bible says to give with a giving spirit. Not "Give me X amount of your income or I will call you and threaten your place in Heaven". I absolutely believe that giving is a great thing, and that you will reap what you sow, however I have seen people not be able to pay their bills after they made their tithe. I highly doubt that's "What Jesus Would Do". I have never been in a church where I did not feel like everyone was just trying to keep up with the Jones' or trying to show everyone else just how holy they are. And many of the greatest hypocrites I know are faithful church goers. I also think you can be a Christian without going to church. I know a lot of people, especially pastors, etc will argue that point, but it is the way I feel. Period. If heaven and Jesus and salvation truly exist, then Jesus and God know what my beliefs are in my heart. I also have a major problem with children being baptized just because they hit a certain age. Baptism is a very personal choice, and it should be decided by that individual, and for the right reasons. Religion is not a prerequisite for morality. Ok, I need to get off my soapbox for now! Great hub, though!
Thanks for reading. Have you two read "Pagan Christianity"? If not I would highly recommend it.
It is understandable that there are things about church that everyone dislikes. However, we must remember that church consists of you and me and we are both imperfect. It follows that there will be unpleasant things. I would suggest that we shift our focus to God - his Son, Jesus Christ - and this would constantly remind us that we are all fallible, hence all the unpleasantries of church.
Tj, you're theory is biblically correct. Theory and practice are two different things as I'm sure you know. I'm in a stage of grieving that others tell me will eventually pass.
tjmatel3 - you are a very wise man, as is evident by reading your hubs. If everyone involved in churches and organized religion remembered those very basic principles, the world would be a better place. Instead, churches are now run more like businesses.
Hello Stan, how are you? I so understand where you are coming from about church. For many of the reasons you mentioned, I no longer attend church. I am quite familiar with the "Church Face" and it is very irritating I agree. I do not beleive in organized religion either and lately there is this hypocracy amongst ministers and ministries that not only preach the word of God but are preaching, no pushing the idea of wealth,wealth,wealth. If you do this, God will give you abundance. I believe that God does bless us but I doubt that billion dollar ministries are what God had in mind for preaching his word. It almost seems like they are putting money before anything else. Anyway, I liked your hub, I'm sure you hit a nerve with some people. lol.
This hub was an exercise in honesty for me. At 44, I'm finding that being honest with myself is one of the hardest things to do. I'm trying to get to the bottom of it and become comfortable in my own skin. So, this was sort of an experiment, and if I were being totally honest, this hub was a glancing blow to someone I despise who will likely never read it. It was either this, or put a sack of flaming dog crap on his front porch, or worse. I wasn't trying to offend anyone else. I do believe that Jesus was the greatest man that ever lived, and that it makes perfect sense to emulate him. But I'm having a hard time finding him at church.
Back to honesty, I would rather just write funny hubs, but I thought it might be interesting to just filet myself open and let the rest of you watch me morph into who I will be. I've been around long enough to know that I'm just in a bit of a dark season right now, and that things won't always be this way.
I really dig the Home Assembly idea. Makes a lot of sense. I also like the thought of going to Africa or some other third world country and just help people get something practical that they really need, like clean water. I think I could find God again if I was doing a lot for others on a regular basis.
I have been in the same boat for a few years. It's not that I don't like organized religion, I just don't like the things that I see in churches. Big expensive buildings, hi-tech sound and video systems, and pastors and staff that wear expensive clothing and drive nice vehicles. And now I'm hearing that for some church's worship teams are actually HIRING non-believer musicians. Anyway, getting back on track, the Apostle Paul talks about "not denying the fellowship of the brethren." Which would make it seem that we are to attend church. BUT! The concept of church in Paul's time was a small number of people getting together at someone's house, singing worship, taking communion, praying together, reading from the scriptures (which was only the Old Testament), and eating a meal. Let me be a witness to you all when I say that I have found comfort in this gathering. I attend a men's accountability group that meets at a large church of which I am not a member (Church Membership is another stupid issue you shouldn't get me started on). This group of men is small (approximately 35 men), and there is a women's group as well. And there are people out there who still meet in their homes on the day of rest. But this small group I am a part of has changed my life. There is a definite sense of fellowship and comraderie, two things that I see severely lacking in the modern day "church." But the church body is the body of Christ as a WHOLE! Not different sects or denominations! So I agree with you, yes, there shouldn't be denominations. But because man is stupid by nature we have to deal with these separations.
I would encourage you all to find a small home group, or even start one of your own. The small numbers really can create awesome fellowship and connection, while at the same time, it gets you away from the materialist churches. But please, get plugged in somewhere! Only studying on your own without any accountability can be VERY dangerous! There are too many lies that satan can tell you about the Word, you need some backup!
this is beautiful :)
im only seventeen and im in the point of my life where i get to choose and believe what i want. Im still confused, but ive learned that being preached to isnt what i want to hear. I believe that god can be in any form you want, and you can worship him in different ways possible. Ive resorted to nature because when im alone and im looking over my county on top of the colorado national monument, theres a feeling i get that i cant explain. I feel like i can believe and anything is possible. I only listen and trust one person, and thats me. So i took matters in my own hands and became spirital through that.
M Cassian, good stuff. I know a LOT of people feel the way we do. Numbers for most, if not all, major denominations are falling. I just don't want to fall into the bitter ex-churchgoer category, so I'm continuing to search for answers. BTW, I was a worship pastor, and yes, we did hire secular drummers on occasion. Are there no competent Christian drummers out there? :)
I'm all about the small group idea. I've slated 2010 as my year to get my spiritual crap together.
Pewters, I read one of your hubs. You've been through a lot. I'm encouraging you to be careful in what you let into your mind, especially when you're rebounding from a lot of pain from your family life. Nature is amazing, I agree, but I can't look at it and not think that it's too complex not to have been created by someone. So then the next question is "Who is that someone?" That's where we begin our quest for God. I hope my hub wasn't misconstrued as a God-bashing session or even a church-bashing one. I was just typing what I was thinking, trying not to filter it too much. By doing so, I have already met some cool people and gotten some great advice.
While I'm in this season of life, I'm going to ask all the hard questions and wrestle with the information until I get the answers that rest easy in my spirit.
Aside from all the trappings of church, good and bad, Jesus seems to keep making himself evident to me, kind of like a rock in my shoe that I can't get out.
Since you're on a spiritual quest of sorts, you need to make sure and investigate Jesus as you form your opinions.
Thanks to both of you for stopping by!
Let me encourage all of you about beginning the whole "home-grown" "small group" church thing. The individuals in the church where I currently belong has very similar stories...burned by the religiosity of the institution. In some ways I am fortunate enough to not have been a "churchgoer" prior to becoming someone who has a relationship with Christ. We are a group of about 30 people who rent a building so we can have a place to worship and fellowship together on a regular basis as the book of Acts calls us to do. Other times we focus on each other and just being there for one another.
This group of believers I belong to has been a place where I have witnessed God- in relationship with them. Of course it is not perfect - none of us who make up the Church are- but it is real. If you do not have a place like that of your own- maybe God is calling you to take initiative. We can not be Christians when we are alone.
Thanks sew. Your last sentence is profound and worth a ton of discussion on its own.
Stan, we've all been there to some degree...Where we have lost our faith in God due to a major disappointment in our lives. It could be multiple disapointments, a series of rejection, loss, hurt, whatever! But, as a man of God, at the tender age of just 44, you've got to 'get over it' now!!! Grow up man. Let Jesus soothed the hurt. The bitterness, the longing. You had better begin to read your Bible now. Get in the word and let it cleanse you, instead of lamenting over and over and self-loathing. Jesus will meet you right where you are. Do you really believe in Him? Trust him, pray and wait for an answer. Read some of what I went threw in the middle to latter half of my soon to be published book, Ready to Soar. Hubpages, my first hub. I pray that you receive your deliverance in the Name of Jesus!!! I break that pity-party and all the open doors and gates you have allowed into your life to cause this continued grief. In Jesus Name, deep down hurt and anguish go, go, go, back to the pitt of hell, and I ask the Lord to release his appropiate angelic presence to close the gate-keepers and all back-lash spirits. I thank God for his blood that was shed and is applied to your spiritual malaise, in the Name of Jesus. I will continually pray for you Stan Fletcher. Look for the good now, let the depression, regression, oppression and doubt go. Happy New Year, love your sister in Christ. TT
Honest hub. Am going to check out your other ones.
You gave faithful advice to Pewters. Continue faithful.
Sometimes we have to ask God the honest questions of a believer, but we must be willing to do so humbly and trust Him enough to faithfully wait on His answers. Job is our example. We have His Word to help us!
Some faithful books you might like to read since you are willing to be a faithful counselor to others:
Trusting God When Life Hurts, J. Bridges
Complete In Him, M. Barrett
Suffering and the Sovereignty of God, J. Piper
Not By Chance, L. Talbert
Beyond Suffering, L. Talbert
Hi Stan fletcher
I could not stop laughing when I was reading your article.It was humourous as well as saddening. First,Jesus christ said that if anyone is to follow him, he should pick up his cross and follow. Here we learn that sometimes its not smooth flowing when you are a christian especially for you as a former pastor.Try to compare your experiences with Paul of Tarsus who was even physically abused and some of your discomforts like the smelling churches and your dislike of pastors who say God told them this and that. You will notice that your experiences are very minor. Problems in churches began long time ago (Acts 6) but they need to be prayed for and resolutions reached by leaders like you were. I want to give you a hind, go back to church, focus on Jesus Christ the aurthor of our faith, do the right thing and lead by example, spray a lot of air freshioner in the church building and read and meditate a lot on the word of God
If you believe in God but are not sure what the truth really is, why not as God to show you? I have seen this work, but not the way most people want it to. You do have to be honest with yourself, and be ready to accept whatever God sends to you. Just pray: "Please God, I am having difficulty finding the real truth about you. Please send me someone who can guide me and help me. I will accept whomever it may be regardless of prior prejudices. I ask it in Jesus name, Amen." You have to mean it.
Thank you for sharing from your heart & gut. Sorry you got burned so badly...but sadly, I am not surprised. We humans can & do screw up the Lord's Prayer, so the fact that we can mess up Christ's supernatural building project ("I will build my church...") is not surprising.
Hang in there with your faith, however fragile or beaten it may be, & in a paraphrase of Paul's words to his friends at Philippi, keep pressing on to the higher calling of our Lord & Savior Jesus Christ.
Much peace & encouragement to you.
Excellent points Gresham. I've got my airfreshener ready. I haven't given up. I've just been knocked to the floor. Down, but not out.
Thanks Steve. I appreciate your concern.
Your comments mean a lot as well, Abell.
Stan, there are a lot of people who would like to go to church but never will, however, if you were the pastor perhaps they would change their mind. You have a unique opportunity perhaps? Good hub.
Now that's an interesting concept, DT. As weird as this sounds, I could see that happening at some point. Now that I've got all these Hubbers praying for me, perhaps some good things will begin to happen.
Thanks again for stopping by.
Wow. Reading this was like reading a transcript of my brainwaves on my views on church. I was raised in a Christian household, church every Sunday, or anytime the doors were opened really and gradually despised it more and more. Now that I'm older and on my own, I still go to church every Sunday, but I don't feel like it's for the right reasons. It's more like I go just to keep up the appearance, as if attending church was an unpleasurable task for work.
I cringe nearly every time I go to church and the subject of money comes up (which seems to be happening more and more). I thought the point of church was to become a better person and learn of the Lord's work, not to upgrade the stain glass windows and buy new carpet every year. I don't mind giving to the church to pay the electric bills and provide the preacher with a salary and sending money to missions to spread the word, but I do not like sitting in church with the same feeling a person gets when they are talking to a used car salesman who will say anything to seperate you from your cash. The focus of church needs to return to its roots and focus of God and the Bible, not money (which I thought was the root of all evil).
Stan Fletcher thank you for sharing from the depths of your heart in this hub. It took great courage to do so, I am sure.
Remember though, that the Christian faith is based upon forgiveness. God forgave us and sent His only son Jesus Christ to die for us. Did we deserve to be forgiven? We certainly did not. Until God helps you to forgive whoever offended you, you will never have true peace, and the church will always appear offensive. Remember we are the ones who make the church what it is.
Religion or relationship??? I believe you know the Truth.
Stan, someone had to say the things you said out loud. So many feel & think it. I grew up a ministers daughter my experinces have been mixed. Even though it is a large organization they have never been about money (for the church or ministers). I never felt preached at and of course tithing has been gone as the bible says so. I fully believe the teachings. Yet, here I am with you down, but not out. Personally people got in the way with THEIR gossip and bad behavior. I had trouble recognizing them by their fruits. My safe place seem to disapper I know longer knew these people. My adult life has been full of tragedy its been alot to keep going. Gods not the problem people are. Example: Two people I was close to came to see me at my husbands bedside. One said, What have you done so bad that all these things have happen to you?" The other said, No, you must be doing something right for Satan to come after you so hard." It gave me something to think about. In my heart I know who I am. So like you I'm down but not out and it's between me and God not others. Just be careful listening to people and to many books. You know where the answers are. The rest is timing and thats Gods time about things including you or me. You'll get it on time.
Thanks for the hub Stan, I always appreciate honesty and bravery.
I think many of the previous commentators gave good suggestions. My humble addition is to emphasize the point made by TJ. Though in practice, we all know it is the great challenge, but it is also our Lord's requirement, "Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me—put it into practice." Philippians 4:9. We continually strive by keeping our eye on Him who loves us so and spiritually developing ourselves through His power.
Forever His,
Wow,way to get us thinking, Stan. The comments were great to read. Especially from all the men.
Through all the experiences, conversations and books, I've decided it all comes down to this. I'm ready to live a life of accountability. Word and action united.
Thanks for uniting us here!
Glad you dropped by jane. I will be surfing over your direction in the next couple of days.
Words and actions united...Integrity.
Good thoughts.
Im so sowwy. But I had no interest in reading any comments but the comments of the author. I have some references to this hub. But first let me start by saying. Happy New Year's To everyone ! Religion is just another way for the enlighten ones and the elite to pose control on the masses. There's an illusion going on right as of now for the deaf, dumb, and blind. I find it very interesting and ironic, that this is the first hub I've come to. First off. People, please wake up. There's a movie called, and I'm pretty sure some of you reading or just went passed this comment like I did others on this hub except of the Authors' have heard of this movie; www.zeitgeist.com... its a great educational college course level movie to teach the 85% masses. In it, it breaks down religion in a scientific and historical way for people to open their eyes to truth. Truth does indeed hurt those who are not prepared for it. Also another reference is King James- http://www.jordanmaxwell.com/articles/religion/kin
Well, Stan…You don’t sound bitter one bit…Good observations and critique that I agree with…4, 6, and 8 stand out the most for me…
I gave up going to church (cult services) at 15 (after being forced to go for 10 yrs.) and never went back…thank goodness!...Oh, I’ve gone now and then to some first communions, and baptisms here and there…And other than it just being a nice ritual for family and community to get together for…Actually being in churches and listening – just reinforced my feeling that I’m not missing out on much of anything…
I had my own ‘spiritual experiences’ starting young at 15 and most ministers in churches just don’t have a clue…They just stay in the superficial dogma, and don’t know how to pull it into the ‘transformation’, and ‘transcendent’ stage...And this is one reason why people get interested in Eastern religions - they do address that…
The possibilities are not about ‘who’ (who is god), or ‘the words’, but, about ‘what’ (what is god) and going ‘beyond words’...So, I’ve just explored on my own and with others sometimes…
I think people’s ‘religious/spiritual’ dialogue should be more about…’what is your experience’?...Not, ‘what is your belief’, or ‘do you believe in ‘jesus’,‘god’ etc…
I could care less if anyone 'believes' in 'Jesus', or 'God'...That doesn't mean squat...That’s the problem with much of mainstream religion…It keeps it in the head - on a very superficial level - ergo all the arrogance and greediness...And the bottom line is the only ‘true church’ is in your heart, and deeds…
If people are plain good-hearted, or just plain decent people and respectful…They show me what kind of person they are – whether ‘atheist’, ‘christian’, ‘fence-sitters’ or whatever…
I am so sick of people hiding behind their religions, crosses, and self-righteous arrogant attitudes…The meanest, cruelest people I have known in my life have been ‘religious’ people…That’s my personal experience…So, I hold a pretty deep disgust for those sadistic, religious types who project onto others the dark cr*p they carry inside their own sick souls…I’ve seen it over, and over again…And we've seen it in the news over and over again...
“We spend a lot of money to be separated”…Right on!...
For me, I’ve found that the most intelligent, caring, compassionate people are secular people - people not affiliated with any kind of institutionalized religions...
And I'm wondering...Have you read any of Thomas Moore's books?...'The Soul's Religion', etc.?...Just curious...
Interesting hub, and more interesting comments. I must admit that some of your observations ring true. I especially liked the one about the smell because I have noticed that about some church buildings myself. The comment about room deodorant was precious. My own 2 cents - I have to keep my perspective knowing that we all are humans and therefore subject to messing up. It does say somewhere in Proverbs that "a brother offended is harder won than a walled city" so I know you are telling the truth about your hurt. However, you must focus on the correct thing, and it ain't human beings.
By the way, there are some churches that don't smell bad. Many of the newer non-denominational ones are very trendy and good smelling :-) Some even forgive when you mess up. And, I almost forgot, the one I go to doesn't take an offering..
Happy New Year,
Wayne
This is a lovely article and shows how pointless religion can be. Religion, not God. No fault lies in the divine but only in the people who decide to interpret and carry out their version of "His" doing.
Stan,
I so appreciate your honesty and vulnerability. I am new to HubPages and still deciding what to write about. Reading this honest posting is inspirational. I am praying for you and for those reading this article. A relationship of any kind has its ups and downs...it's what we do with the in between times that makes the difference. I have experienced some of what you shared and have to return again and again to the truth of God's Word--"in this world you will have trouble, but take heart, I have overcome the world". We shouldn't have to worry about that trouble in the church, but we do live with fallen and broken people everywhere we go. His grace is enough...
Happy New Year
Kim
Religion's establishment can be lethal. Ironically it killed Jesus and most of the early Christians.
Baptist PK, and it was age 34 before I could trust Jesus with everything.
I just read "the Hole in Our Gospel" by Richard Stearns; I found it a fantastic discussion about what the church should be and could be. I also love the Voice of the Martyrs ministry because it refocuses me.
Worthwhile discussion that you initiated! I think there are a lot more of you and me out here than we could imagine.
I agree with you observations about 'church', Christians need to break out of the church goldfish bowl. 'Inside out church' is the future, Jesus met folk where they were. The world is full of funny smells, bad stuff and loads of fun also.
Stan, I can feel so much sadness, you exhibit a real pastors heart, you have felt the pain of your flock. I am just beginning, I will try to take on board much of your reflections. Every blessing
It sounds like 90% of what your saying is leadership issues. And yes, there are many corrupt leaders in the church. Pastors that lead just for a paycheck, or just to have a sense of power, etc... The other ten percent is just complaining. If we within ourselves can come to a place where it is just me and God one on one, and really seek God first in EVERYTHING we do, just like the bible says, all this things will be added unto you. The church is suppose to be a place of refuge. a holy temple where a congregation can come together to praise and thank god for the things he has done. Everything else is aesthetic. I do strongly agree with you however on the different denominations. This really is very sad, and wado need to be torn down. But this must start in ourselves! If we can break down walls, the collective body will eventually also:)
Thanks James. I appreciate you stopping by.
Yes, Kakira, there are lots of disgruntled folks in the pews. Some because they have a reason to be, and some who just like to be disgruntled. There should be some good options outside of abandoning ship altogether. When people are tired, they tend to give up instead of searching.
Rev, thanks for reading. "inside out" is a concept that I've heard a lot, but seen little of. The answer, of course, is for me to lead by example and not be a critic sitting on the sidelines. I'm wise enough to know that, and also wise enough to know that I'm not in a place right now of strength that I need to be in.
Dereck, great points. It sometimes seems that we get so busy 'doing church' that we can't 'be Christians'. Whether we admit it or not, there is an unhealthy amount of legalism in the way we corporately conduct ourselves. There are lots of expectations, sometimes adhered to under the guise of accountability that are not in our best interest. i.e. being in church every time the doors are unlocked. If we're not very careful, the Christian life becomes a series of wearying dos and don'ts that can suck the life out of our relationship with God and others.
Stan, a fine hub pointing out things that most of us don't like about Church. My husband and I were in Ministry for about 30 years. Most of those 30 were fine years with wonderful people we ministered to. My husband is a humble, gentle servant with a heart and people only showed love and respect to us...
I knew many of our Pastor friends and family who went through the type of disallusionment and upheaval in their Churches and I'd think .. Oh Lord - please protect us from having to go there. But... it was not to be.
A very strong and wealthy leader in our last Church was pushing his power and being verbally abusive to some Church members. One day my husband came home and said .. I am going to take a stand against this behavior and it may mean my job - but I must do it. I totally supported him and agreed that such behavior is not of God.
To tell you all the details here would be too long ... long story short - this man turned on my husband along with his cronies... The Church ended up standing behind my husband and took a stand against what this man wanted (my husband to be gone).
While in the midst of the upheaval (spiritual battle)We had daily prayer times asking God to search our hearts and see if there be any sin therein. We prayed for His will to be done and never stopped praying for weeks.
One day the man and followers left. It was miraculous as he was very powerful.. But the funds were gone - we stayed on at 1/2 the salary for two years... but the Church funds went way down with the departure and they never came up. We were drowning financially and had to step down.
We were burned out - battle weary - hurt and felt estranged. It's been 4 years and we still have not settled in a Church.
We have found Churches that impress and amaze us with their love for Christ and their Worship.. Pastor's with a fresh heart of honesty and love for God. We are just having a hard time finding a place we can call home after being at our last church for 15 years... They were family and now they are gone... I think the fear of commitment is involved here..
So you see my friend - I do feel and understand your grief and the anger.
A very kind and wise gentleman friend taught me what I like to call the "Forgiveness Prayer." (I wrote a hub on it called Forgiveness) I applied it immediately to the situation and began to pray for the instrumental powerful leader and those who attacked my husband in a vicious manner ... as a result can honestly say I have no bitterness ... only compassion for those men and their own pain which drove them to create pain for so many people...(the change of heart to be able to forgive ... it's a God thing .. really)
I thank God that He loves me and is patient ... but we too are counting 2010 as the year we make the dive into Church life and become part of a ministry.. There are some great Churches out there ... it was good to visit different bodies of believers (all these years)to see the diversity and styles and feeling of different Church bodies...
We went to mostly undenominational type Churches and to Churches mostly held in new building (no bad smells) LOL.
We will make it - only as we keep our eyes on God and off of man... He is the one who began the good work in us ... He will complete it too - That's what God promises.
Thanks for the hub and the opportunity for many many to share. Love to you dear Brother ...
Yes, Stan, God too would be saddened if He walked into some of these churches and see the way His people treat each other. His heart would break, He would shed tears of sorrow and anguish and He would be grieved deeply in His spirit. Yet, God is still longsuffering, He still pursues His people and perseveres with them and witholds His judgement and wrath. He still forgives and wait for us to confess and repent. The day will come when enough is enough, and He returns to exercise His righteous judgement and justice on those who fail to put things right through Christ. He understands your anguish, hurt and pain, but does not want you to stay in that place of bitterness but lay it all before Him. He wants Himself to be your strength when you are weak, and be the one to lift up your head, to take away the shame, guilt and darkness that others have put on you or you have put on yourself. God loves you no matter what. The Father sent the Son for you, Jesus died on the cross to remove the curse from you and the Spirit indwells to anoint, comfort and counsel you as you abide in HIM alone.
What a wonderfully honest sharing of your difficult journey. Congratulations on being able to accept it, express it and for your willingness to continue your journey. Blessings to you and may God guide your feet, Jesus your actions and the Holy Spirit your heart.
I really enjoyed this Hub. Not only was it entertaining but it was also VERY true. I have seen and heard about most of the negative things you mentioned happening. I think it is good to realize that even our most sacred institutions need to be seriously scrutinized every once and awhile and improved or even overhaul if need be.
I also liked how you mentioned that the book of you life isn't finished yet. This is something I have been telling myself a lot lately. yeah, i made some mistakes in the past but I can start trying to change and hopefully will be granted the time to fully change before my story is complete.
Stan,
I was driving home from church this very morning, and I listened to a radio broadcast of a Sunday School class over in Dallas. The teacher was talking about division in the church, and remarked, "Some churches have been known to break up over the color of the carpeting."
Suddenly I asked myself, "Do I know the color of the carpeting in our church?" NO. I couldn't tell you if you put a gun to my head.
Why will churches focus on such little things?
In all seriousness, I had a late friend who I remember saying, "There is no hurt like a church hurt."
No doubt at all, you have suffered a lot of loss. I do believe you need time to grieve. If you can find a way to fellowship with other believers in the way our friend AMW mentioned, go for it.
I was once a member of a church where it was just "assumed" that everyone was living fine and comfortably. It wasn't a prosperity church -- far from it, in fact. The church had a lot of older people in it who, I am sure, would have been resistant to change. The membership contained some prominent people, plus the former Speaker of the U. S. House, who I walked by every Sunday as I and my fellow choristers proceeded up to the loft. And the church leaders did put on what you call the "church face." Although money wasn't talked about much, it was obviously real, real important. One Christmas, I wanted to help a family in need by giving them money anonymously. The Associate Pastor could not think of a church member who could use it -- instead he said they would give it to a struggling couple whose kids attended the pre-school. I was glad for them to have it, but some of his comments just reinforced what I already knew.
God bless, Stan. I will pray for you today.
I have to agree with many of the things you saya. I have even experienced some of them. In the end churches are made up of human beings It makes me think of a satirical song by Ray Stevens called the "Mississippi Squirrel revival" You might find it to be comic relif to the things you mention.
Mekenzie, power struggles in church have caused lots of heartache. Unfortunately, many pastors aren't willing to go toe to toe with strong tithers. But in the end, it hurts the body. That's why I wonder if we should even have buildings and paid staff. I do know this - being paid was a major problem for me, because I had to put on my church face too many times when I wasn't 'feeling it' due to the fact that I was being paid to 'do a job'. (I was a worship pastor, btw.)
Shazza, thank you. I appreciate the spirit in which your comments were written. I didn't publish this hub for several days in fear that people would try to start cramming things down my throat. That has not been the case.
Ditto to you Rope. Your comments are encouraging.
Timothy, Thanks for your comments. We are all a work in prgress. I can tell just by looking at your picture that you have a kind heart. I really appreciate you stopping by.
Gracenotes, another quote, "The church is the only organization that shoots its wounded." Kinda funny, but true in some ways. Really appreciate the prayers.
Dahoglung, I will definitely check out the song. Comic relief is always good...
Thank you all for reading!
Stan, I agree and appreciate your honesty. It is the place we must reach in order to begin. All that we see, hear, process in our mind is of little use to the infinite direction of our God created intent. Jesus set the example and we know we will be rejected by the world, especially those in religeous church settings. Humanity has become domesticated to belief the place of worship is in church. Jesus prophesied the church would be torn down. Christ alone is the foundation of truth not the church. As a preachers son, I observed early in my life, church after church experiencing disharmony, due to legalism. The word of God was in the begining and is infinite. The bible is but a portion of the word. It is peoples lives and their experiences living with the word in their hearts "not the bible". The word was made flesh. The bible was not made flesh. My dad experienced a simular pain as you have. After 23years he was sent a letter by the Southern Baptist Convention, stating his ways did not reflect those of the SB was it was recommended he resign. My dad was shocked and it seems he has not gotten over it. However; I have learned not to place my faith in man, religion, not even in myself. I am learning to surrender my domesticated perceptions, leaning not into my own understanding, rather in all things acknowledging the one who has the code to my life. The one who created me and knows my purpose. Stan, as you know God loves you and what you have experienced is by design and with significant purpose. God can really use you now. With each attachment that is torn away we draw closer to Him. We can only discover our created purpose through our alone intimate time in meditation. Allowing His spirit to speak to us in our stillness as we silence our minds voice. We are the result of Gods created intent in the final days. A yearning for His return. God is present all around us and in us. Either we are connected or disconnected by our connection with human attachments. The release of these attachments leave only the infinite alignment with God in our hearts through the Holy Spirit. With love and great understanding. Joe
Stan I thought I would share a dream I had over a decade ago. It was shephards although well intended leading sheep off a cliff. The shephards could not see as they were blind. This has and continues to be my concern. Shephards misleading the flock by attempting to domesticate the mind with Biblical words rather than teaching surrender to God's spirit. It has been taught you accept Christ and your in. "Not true". When I married my wife I said "I do" and it involved a relationship, as it is with my relationship with God. No matter if I am in a prison dungeon, if I am there God willed it for His infinite honor and glory, that He may be glorified. We too often see and react in flesh, which allows us to discover our disconnections with the infinity of God. Our power is within not without, in spirit not in events. We have not be lead to understand the process of transformation. It is in ackowledgeing a spiritual direction that we find truth in all we experience. God never forsakes us.
I so so thank you for this sharing truth. Truth is where God is. Truth exposes disconnections, just as light clears the darkness. Domestication of society has been passed from generation to generation without question. God is not a domesticated perception. God is infinite. I will share I am saddened that on my facebook page 98% of the pastors comment on where theyre eating, where theyre traveling to etc. Most of the friends from India, China and other third world countries have become close spiritual friends as we thrive of spirtual growth through a constant acknowledgement our our created existance for the Glory of our created. Again blessings to you. We are at the beginning of a devide between true spirituality and domesticated god beliefs. People say they believe in God yet follow their own intuition, they conditioned responses. God is in spirit. With infinite love. Joe
A good Hub - interesting and forthright. In actual fact, I suspect that you may well be asking yourself why (in the 21st Century)anyone needs any religion at all? Frankly, it mystifies me and I can see no reason why you should feel compelled to be religious. As life goes on, we all change and discarding what is not needed or what has become irrelevant is perfectly normal, mature and something about which you should be proud..
Stan, it would seem that you have been disappointed by many things you have experienced in your religeous pursuits. My experience has been somewhat better. One of the most important things to remember is that Christianity is rally not a religeon in it's purest form. Christianity is a relationship. It begins with a relationship with the God of creation who visited earth about 2000 years ago to demonstrate God in his live on earth. A study of the apostle Paul to the church in Corinth tells you that there probably never been a perfect church. That is because churches are made up of people. If I ever find the perfect church I will not join it. I would not want to spoil it's perfection. I find that too many people affiliate with a church to be served by it. Jesus said that he did not come to earth to be served but to be a servant. People who devote themselves to sevice find less time finding fault. May I suggest a thorough study of The apostle's letter to the Church at Rome? It is a great study of the grace of God through Jesus Christ.
May God bless your efforts to know him better.
Travis L.
Very interesting thoughts Joe. I appreciate the time you took to put this down for my benefit and for the benefit of the other readers.
Nicks, I have asked myself the questions you have posed in your comments. I think every person of faith goes through periods of doubt, wondering if they're on the right track.
No matter what conclusions we come to at any given moment, I believe that we're all seekers to one degree or another, and that things seldom work out exactly as we anticipate.
I do believe in a Creator, or Designer, if you will. Things seem much too complex to have just happened out of nowhere. But we are so small compared to the vastness of the universe, and our time here is so limited, it is difficult to really get a grasp of the big picture.
I will be writing about this more in the coming weeks.
Thanks for stopping by.
Howdy Stan. I could not have said it much better than you laid this out. I found myself sharing the same sentiments with church and religion. My current reality is very similar to yours. I too have had a bad taste and some anger with "the church". Honestly I was angry at God for quite some time. This all began with my divorce and how it was handled in my own church among my "friends". I found myself seeking and making new friends. I have only stepped into a church three times in the past two years. Someday I will write about my new reality versus my old one so stay tuned. Love your writing.
- Whitaker
Whitaker, you seem like the kind of guy that I would love to sit down and visit with. Anger with God is certainly something I can relate with. As a matter of fact, that anger was the catalyst for a lot of bad decisions I've made. I don't want to be angry anymore. Frankly, it's too dang tiring.
I will be checkin out our hubs here in just a few minutes.
I really appreciate you stopping by.
Stan,
The interesting thing is, Jesus came to me when I was homeless. Living in the woods. There was no religion. No church. No fellowship. No nasty casseroles, either.
My relationship with Jesus was devoid of people. Religious people. Judgements, bickering, backstabbing and all that came later wasn't there that night. It set the stage for my relationship with God.
Unchained Grace Ministries, LLC is the completion of the vision which came from that night and today, I find myself with a heavy outreach program for the homeless. Veterans and nonvets. Sure, there's always malcontents. Jealousy and all that. But, remember how it started. My focus was on God and not people so what they did and how they acted was, in the end, something they'd have to resolve for themselves.
Like Joshua, I had and still have a singlemindedness towards the vision. Joshua 24:15. It is what it is.
So, having said that, it doesn't mean anything in terms of how we're treated by others whether they claim a relationship with God or not. That's on them. But as for me and my house, we shall serve the lord.
Everyone has their own letter to the freedom of Aung
If you wanted traffic to your hub, you certainly got it. I don't think that is what you were really after though. You are better off now, stay away from them. I went through similar experiences myself well over twenty years ago. I am much happier now. Good luck.
There is a vast divide between the truth in the word of God and what today most call Church.
Jesus Christ is the Word we Christians are the Body being fed by the Word which is Christ.
He came as our Shepherd to Guide each of us. Where many have a problems is when they believe and follow man made laws and made made agendas.
The Only God most know is the one Man has built for them to follow. Following truth is a personal thing between God and us individually.
This is where the Spirit of God comes into play. We do not need any one other than Christ to tell our faults to and ask forgiveness to He lives within so why all the Games? When we each have Christ within, then we are truly Saved.
Ah, Yes to find a true church, if it were all like a bible study instead of being lead by someone who statistics say has a very good chance of not even believing in God. I am so sorry to say it but I think it is just an easy living for many Pastors. Years ago I went to this church trying out Pastors needing a new one and I did this alone and one out of all of them was so full of the spirit of God, I don't think Church had ever excited me more. He would be the one they picked I knew, how could they not so I dragged my husband to hear him and the church had chosen the one who put everyone down and was sending most of us to hell. We really have had so many bad experiences and I know in these last days fellowship will be so important to us. I thing Daytripeer may have something friend-and if God calls, please answer.
Unchained, yours is one of my favorite comments on this post. I've determined that the next stage in my spiritual development is to 'hit the streets' and do the things Jesus would be doing. Thanks for the inspiration.
yy, I need to read up in this Aung thing.
ralwus - I'm trying to keep a line drawn between Jesus and the 'church' as I've come to know it. As you can see, I'm asking a lot of questions and have a lot of doubts, but I'm exploring new ideas. I appreciate your input and you stopping by.
Great comment Oilrod. Thanks for reading.
Pollyannalana, if He calls, I will answer. There are a growing number of people who are disallusioned with church. I would like the think that we have gotten it wrong somewhere along the way and that it is the institution that needs to be fixed and not the precepts of faith. Thanks so much for reading.....
Excellent list, Stan. I am glad I found you on HubPages as you are a fine writer with an out-of-the-box testimony. I look forward to reading more of your work.
Stan, thank you for sharing your story with us, and for allowing yourself to be so vulnerable and honest. It is difficult to recuperate once disappointed and burned by institutions and people of faith, or who proclaim their Christianity, whatever their denomination. However....our eyes need to always stay focused on our Savior, Master and friend Jesus Christ, for it is by His Light and His example do we shine, not by the world's light or example. As the world will always disappoint, because it is impossible to live up to Christ's standards of ((Sinless Man)) as we are all made human, and unfortunately born into sin, from the seed of Adam. But once we are baptized in the Holy Spirit, (the old man is gone, and the New Man....'Jesus' The incorruptible seed takes root in our hearts.) We need to focus our attention on His attributes and teachings, for there will we find seed to produce the real Fruit of the Spirit. And remember, as I'm sure you know all too well as a pastor for fifteen years, Jesus was against the "Religious" leaders of His time, the Pharisees and Sadducees as He referred to them as "Whitewashed fences on the outside, but dead-man's bones on the inside." They looked good, said and did the so-called right things, always trying to keep the LAW....but their hearts were far from God. Remember what Jesus said in John 6:38; "For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me." Jesus was always about His Father's will, not of his own. This is why he had to excuse himself often from the crowd and go off to the mountain, to be alone with the Father, to commune with Him one on one.....to get Spiritually rejuvenated and to learn of His perfect will. This is why he could say in John 10:30; "I and the Father are one." He was a continual expression of His Father's will. Jesus, the man, the sinless Son of God, but also the Divine. He is the only one should we focus our attention, and mirror His divine attributes. Easier said than done, ((I know)); as I am a continual work in progress......we all are, but thank God Jesus looks at our hearts to see His reflection. Amen!!
Stan, perhaps that just might be what Jesus has for your vision. You backed away from the paid pastor thing and had some serious issues. Getting back to what He did (direct outreach/ministry) is devoid of all the trappings that Paul spoke of. Remember all of what was in the Pastoral Epistles?
Jeremiah 23?
Stan, all of what I read points to you going back out on the street. The true foundation. Hey, I knew nothing of church life when Jesus came to me when I was homeless. So, I started from the real basics.
I had to come back to this Hub. God drew me back. I was about ready to shut down for the night. I love street ministry.
In Baltimore, it gets interesting.
We are in an ongoing spiritual war, so it makes sense to put on our armor, the sword of the spirit and do battle right there among the enemy and his little demons.
STAN, there is a lot of wisdom in Mekenzies message. God loves you unconditionally and I am sure you preached that message many times when you pastored. It is easier to say it when you are up front and things are going well. Now you are where the "rubber meets the road" with the Lord. Can He be everything to you that you need him to be? Yes He is willing and able. You can spend many years trying to heal yourself or you can reach out to Jesus. The hard thing to do is to forgive a man who did evil things against you. He doesn't care whether you forgive him or not but the way to healing is forgiveness. That doesn't mean that it is ok what he did to you but if you let him, he will tear you down even further if you don't forgive. Hate will do no good for your physical body, your mind, your emotions, your spiritual life etc.The beauty of forgiveness is that you don't have to be at a place where you can say I don't hate this awful guy. Even in your hate, pain, depression,you can take a step however small it may be and ask the Lord to help you to forgive. He will honor that and do a work in your heart each time.The man who hurt and broke your heart does not deserve your forgiveness but I know a world that didn't deserve God's forgiveness so He took a step of faith and sent His Son as you know. Let Jesus who is the lover of your soul do a work of healing in you and see what great things He can do for you and through you. If you can go back to your first love I know you will be made whole and that is what I pray for you. Be Blessed.
Stan, Wow - Truthful Hub, I thank you for that.I will be praying for God's will in your life. I know just from what I have heard about you and what little I have read that God has plans for your life. You are entirely too talented to not have an awesome misssion coming your way. Your Hub has also made me think deeply that any one of us could face situations that test and try our faith. I thank you for being so honest about where you are at.
Stan
OK
11. The race out of the church parking lot should have a starter flag. God may be in the church but the Devil owns the parking lot.
True that OD.
Stan, I realize that time has passed since this hub was active, but I'd like to add my 2 cents/sense for what it's worth.
I didn't realize how incredibly funny you are! What great hubs! (I actually never even heard of the word "hub" until I found this yesterday.) This particular one touches me deeply - partly because I'm honored to know you personally from years back during your "worship leader" days and partly because of my own experiences. I, too, have struggled with the church thing ever since leaving the one years ago that you were on staff at.
I find myself battling guilt every Sunday at not attending because I do believe that we need that covering as a body of two or more. I'm not sure if my expectations are too high for the ones I've tried, but I just haven't found one that I can't wait to get back to. I would, however, like to add to your irritant list - 11. Trying to absorb a message while one (or two) person(s) feels the need to shout "AMEN! YES LORD!" after every or even during sentences being spoken. I spend more time repenting for wanting to choke someone than hearing what I'm supposed to hear.
Trailing on the awesome comments of Unchained, my intimate relationship with the Lord developed after my daughter's suicide (that you helped me through), after my husband left, and after I left that particular church, and it was just HE and me literally 24/7. What an amazing time that was - literally like a one-on-one classroom - and how I grew and learned! My point being that it doesn't matter where - it only matters that you're open and you desire it more than anything. God took the two worst things that could happen to anyone and turned my eyes from me to Him and the most amazing peace occurred even though I had to battle to maintain it at times. I never knew the Holy Spirit until then, and I'm sure my neighbors thought I'd lost it - sitting alone on my deck talking and asking questions.
To reach that true intimacy with Christ that He desires, we all have to go through brokenness. We certainly can have a relationship with Him without it, but not on the level we were meant to. Only when we reach [the bottom] so to speak, and realize that we are not in control - He is, can we know that peace which truly does pass all understanding. I can't tell you how many times during my brokenness that I said, "But I HAVE given it over to [the Lord]! What do you MEAN I've taken it back?" I remember the exact time I finally got it; exhausted from going around the same mountain over and over. I sat on my deck swing, head hung, and meekly said, "OK, Lord, I get it."
Life is a journey, and each trial is a gift if we look back at what we've learned. Stan, you have touched more lives than you know, and I'm blessed to call you "friend". Personally, you were a major part of my daughter's memorial service, you sang at my wedding, and were the conduit to the Lord pushing me back to school (remember?) when I didn't know where to turn. However, God needed you elsewhere, you heeded and maybe just like it took the Israelites longer than they expected to find the Promise Land because of their impatience, you've had a few detours. God hasn't lost you - He's still working through and in you. Look at the new gifts that keep surfacing and even through this Hub the many lives you are touching. Ripple effect, my brother - ripple effect. This has also enticed me to maybe start my own hub and get back to writing. Been a year since my last book - thanks, Stan!!
One of the best hubs ive read and certainly one of the most honest. I didn't read through all of the comments because there are so many. I may accidentally do a repeat of someone else. My all time favorite church peeve. Drum roll please............................................
ILL PRAY FOR YOU. I overheard an elderly couple telling a good Christian how that they were missing doctors appointments because they didn't have a car, anyone to take them and they were living day to day on SSI and couldn't afford the two dollars a piece for bus fare. The good Christian said, "Ill pray for you". They didn't need a prayer, they needed a ride, or 4 bucks for the bus. The good Christian was quite wealthy and could have easily provided that for them. I despise hypocrits. I also despise priests that rape children and hide behind the Catholic church.
yep, that's a common one Lisa. I've actually been guilty of that one myself I'm afraid. Anytime we have the means to help someone, we should do so on the spot.
I like what you have to say and can appreciate how you feel. I'm a christian also, scent's 9 yrs old when Christ found me. When I got older I fell far away though, for about 40 years. I've return to the LORD and been sober for all must two and a half years. I try to make it to church regular, but if I'm not there no one seams to care.
I have told my girl friend no one is going to come looking for you or me, and I believe that.
Also I like to give, but I have decided I don't like building funds ether, if brother Joe is out of work, I like to help brother Joe, he's the church not the building.
I just started writing blogs, my first is: Christians Vote Your Faith Or Vote Your Economics "check book"
Thanks
Schautz - congrats on your sobriety. That's awesome. I'll be checkin out your blog in the next few days. Thanks so much for stopping by and leaving your comments.
I was once told that I wasn't healed at a church service because I lacked faith. The sad part was that I actually doubted my faith for some time after that. I have had many tough times in my life and it's through my faith that I've survived. I don't believe my disability is a punishment. Rather, I look at it as an opportunity. God has placed me in places and situations that I might not have been in otherwise. I have some issues with organized religion as well. I believe God has given you many wonderful gifts and I also believe He will lead you to ways and opportunities to use them. Allow yourself to be open and He will use you!
Of that, I am sure! :)
Karen- You are such a sweet person. I really appreciate what you had to say and am blown away that anyone would have told you that, although it doesn't surprise me....
Thanks so much for your encouraging words.
it took me so long earthling to scroll down to the bottom of this screen to make a comment that God has made a comeback and will flood this world for 40 days and 40 nights... yes it's me again - see other comment - your friendly Martian on a visit here to your planet.
THEY SAY you are the funniest man on this thang (James Brown influence again) called HUB PAGES .... I am inclined to agree - so we need volunteers to return with me back home in order to keep my people laughing ....are you interested?
Eman - ya, the responses for this one blew me away. I was just letting off a little steam, and people really related to it. I still haven't come even close to this many readers on any one of my other 'better' hubs. I try to stay away from being serious too much here.
I wish I knew who 'they' were. I would like to believe it were true, but there are some dang funny people on this thang called Hubpages. (I use the word thang liberally also.)
I can't volunteer to return to your planet, but I can send some Podcasts.
Thanks for reading.
Stan, I had an experience where a group of church leadership basically turned their back on me, too. It felt like they were completely ignoring me and my family because I was divorced. I was hurt and pissed off because I had always had a heart after God and never intended to have my ex-wife call for the divorce. I was extremelly disappointed as a few attempts to serve the Lord through Backyard Bible clubs for kids and a unrealistic building program at this church went completely unnoticed. My wife and I left because of the crap that was going on.
It took us a while to get through it and tried several churches to the point where we just stopped going. We have since found an amazing church that loves God and doesn't JUDGE people by what they've gone through, but embraces it and knows that it will contribute to great things in the future.
There's light at the end of the tunnel!
Steve - Hey, thanks man. Great comment. Glad you're doing well. I will find what I'm looking for eventually.
FINALLY!!! somebody that shares the same philosophy as me! I too cant stand preachers who claim "God told me to _____" and I agree with you that Jesus would not be a member of any church today. Churches are so full of crap these days and you're right they all wear bloody masks! Nice hub man, keep 'em coming!
jasmine - thanks for the comment and for reading my hub. I wrote this one some time ago, and I am still trying to sort all of this out in my mind. For now, I'm not attending church anywhere. It can be quite confusing for someone who was raised in church. Thanks for the visit.
Hi Stan, Nine months down the road since your hub. How are you doing? I was converted at 22 and was Christian for thirty years. Like you I hated the division of denominations and a whole lot else. I thought I was a prophet .. so I took a lot of flack. In the last 10 years I was extremely angry and wanted to put every professional pastor priest out of a job. But then I left and the whole Christian conflict became a thing of the past and completely irrelevant, totally. But I could see the pain you speak of in your hub and earnestly desired to go back and help people. But there was just too much flack and I'll be honest, I was too scared to go back. But now the anger is gone and the dogma just noise so I am reaching out to encourage people just like you. I am no longer a Christian but one thing I've learned, forgiveness and love are the keys to freedom in the present. I hope you find your peace. If there is anything I can do to help, just let me know. I just wrote a new hub on this. All the best Shaun
Thanks Shaun. On my way to read your hub!
Church Bad, God Good
I live in a small Texas town, and grew up in the 1st Baptist Church. My mother was vigilant about having my sister and I go to Sunday school and church every week.
Really didn't like it for all the reasons you mentioned.
So when I moved away for college, and the choice was left to me I no longer attended any church. Sunday mornings became about sleeping late and recovering from the night before. I guess this was working for me, what could God or church do for me anyway? I'm a good person, I know right from wrong. OK fast forward from 1993 to October 2009 ...Alone in this Godless world, no one understands me, I don't understand myself. Just miserable, I decide I should leave my husband, afterall he desrves better. At this point I have alienated myself from all friends and family. Feeling so lost and not knowing what to do with myself, I go back. Back to God(not the same old church) I'm thankful now that my mom insisted we went to Church every Sunday, it so happens all those Sundays served as the bread crumbs along the path that led me back to God. Today, things are far from perfect, but my husband and I attend Bay Area Fellowship, a very large non-denominational church where you kind of feel anonymous(which I like), no one cares about what you wear or if you miss a Sunday. The focus is on God's grace and all things good and positive.
Now going to church on Sunday is my spring board for jumping into each new week with a positive attitude.
Marley - Great comment. Sounds like we've traveled similar paths. I grew up in a small Southern Baptist Church in Texas too. It was largely a very positive experience, but I think most of us carry some kind of baggage from when we were kids. I'm still in seeking mode, but now that my depression has gone away, I feel like I can get closer to God again.
We have a lot in common - 20 years in ministry, run down and out by the church/leadership/burnt out strung out hung out to dry - even took to driving OTR like you. But I did find my way back into fellowship, if not organized religion. Thank you for your honesty.
Dave - thanks for your comment. Sounds like we've traveled similar roads. I know that there is a place for me to find God again, and to be honest, I'm not worried about it. I've just come out of a major debilitating depression that lasted a little over 3 years, and was coming on long before that. My spiritual life is on my life's to-do list. It's something that can't be forced. You thanked me for my honesty, and I thank you for yours.
Stan,
I'm not sure what to say. This hub makes me want to share my boring story, but that's not the point. The point is that you really put yourself out there to talk about something that most people dance around. I know someone who says that organized religion is bad, for many of the same reasons. You have made me very introspective. Thanks for writing this!
AC - glad to make you intospective. I think.
Stan, It's scary to think about this, because there are two alternatives. One is, something awful happens to myself or my family that brings me back to church. Two is, nothing bad happens, so I never end up going back to church. I don't want either situation for myself, and thinking about it is scary. But I'm glad to have read your hub, because it is very good to be reminded of these things that I haven't thought of in far too long. Thank you, Stan!
AC- Glad to make you think... I think.
This is a tough issue for a lot of people, as you can see from the comments. Let me know what you figure out.
Uh oh.... that means I need to make a decision, doesn't it? I will have to get back to you.....
For now, I am prepared to make a personal commitment to think! Or do I mean, believe? :) Maybe a little bit of both.
AC - Thinking is the best thing you can do. I think God would appeciate an honest doubter more than a poser. These are worthy things to ruminate on.
Interesting hub Stan, didn't know you served the church either. I was wary of commenting on this though as my views are pretty strong...my experience of the church is not good. When I was 9yrs old my mother (who was a devout church goer) went to the vicar of her church & asked for me to be baptised. He said no as I was too old and would have to make that decision as an adult myself. He then made her get down on her knees with him and pray for my soul as I would never enter the kingdom of heaven, as he so put it. Condemned to hell. She did so and cried throughout....
She never went back. I think I'll leave it there, nuff said, I do have views on the church and religion generally but maybe here is not the place. Don't want to offend anyone, which my views might.
Rating up :)
Stan,
How insightful. Though, if I decide to be an honest doubter because God would appreciate that more than me being a poser, well, I can't honestly doubt someone at the same time that I try to please Him, can I? I will stick with thinking and believing for now, thanks Stan!
Dawn - ministers mean well for the most part. I really believe that. Unfortunately, we just get church wrong somehow, and too often. But spiritual issues are worth grappling with, and at some point we have to move beyond the pain of the past and really figure out what the adult version of ourselves believes.
Glad you read this and took the time to comment.
AC - I have a book recommendation for you. "Oh Me of Little Faith". Can't remember the author's name, but I'm sure you can find it on Amazon. You will like it, so just take my word for it and get it. And thanks a million for reading and commenting.
You have such an overwhelming amount of comments, suggestions, exhortations and everything else in between. You have been brave in exposing your feelings and for that I commend you. May God bless you on your journey of faith and love.
BTW my son Christopher is the greatest competent Christian drummer that ever lived upon the face of the earth. He has his degree in Music and is an avid Percussionist as well. Trained in all genres as well. Okay just thought I would put in this mother's view on her baby boy in the most humblest and noblest manner she knows how. LOL
Oh and P/S my older son Craig is the greatest, competent Christian bass player in the world too and all the other things I said above about the younger one.
Okay I better stop before I get stones thrown my way. hahahahaha
This was a great eye-opener to many beliefs about religion, and what people choose to believe in...even some, in themselves? Although I heard a lot of it all before, seen it and even lived some of it. I grew up being told I had to go to church, if I didn't want to go to hell...so of course I went! Although I don't claim to belong to any one given church or denomination anymore, I still believe in one creator. I like how the Indian culture depicted God. That we are one with nature and all creatures of the earth, including that of man. I guess being human, we tend to see the flaws of others, and nick-pick that which we don't want to see, hear or understand. I know we are accountable for our own actions and that the choices we make for ourselves, ripple out to those around us. Love is the best answer...and from what I know of God, he represents that purest form of life. (just my thoughts on the matter). Good hub anyway. I applaude you for your courage and for sharing your thoughts from it with us. :)
lcg - That's really cool about your boys. Christian music is a tough business to make a living in, but the best of the best do OK. Thanks for your comments and kind words....
Shygirl - thanks for the great, and well-thought out, comment. I really appreciate you reading what I had to say.
I Was wondering for years, where have honest people gone? where are they? where can I find them?
Now that I found you by coincidence (but I don't anything is a coincidence. There is more to coincidence than meets the eye. That's the only Thing I know. Do I always believe it? Not always. It's the truth however regardless of what I think about it.) Anyway as I said: I was wondering for years of my life where the honest people have gone. And now that I found you by coincidence. I can't handle the honesty. Now I understand what my therapist meant by..."Be careful what you're asking for unless you're sure that this is what you want. Cause you might get a lot more than you can manage." Now you my friend, proved her right. This is what I hate about her. When she says something. Sooner or later it happens.
Anyway. The things that you don't like about the church. Are the same things or less than what I don't like about it. I always felt guilty about it though. I was raised to think that a good christian has to respect and honor the church regardless of what Is happening in it. Or I am not a good christian. One part of me though, believed that God is the one I have to honor, not some building made by humans that want to control people's lives and faith. Also the most horrible people I met and the least benevolent are the ones that call themselves christians and label people who don't share their denomination as heretics. I am sorry to disappoint them but These days especially if jesus was here with us. He would totally ignore us. That Is what I believe. And as for the heretics, My honest belief about it is this.: Ever since Jesus rose and went back to heaven, we have all become heretics in our unique ways. We can call these ways anything we like. But this is what we are. Am I making any sense? As about the good christian thing. I don't blame anyone for not wanting to be a christian anymore and I myself am more focused on becoming a good human being. After all God created humans. Not Ideas to label them. What do you think?
Kostas - you've raised some good questions. Jesus said 'seek and you will find, knock, and the door will be opened to you'. That's all any of us can do. The church has wounded a lot of people, but that doesn't mean that we turn against it. We just have to constructively work through our pain.
Stan.
I agree with your comments. I believe them too a little.
What I hate about the church, is that it allows so many hypocrites to be in control of it. Everyone has the right to be in church. The good, the bad and the ugly. Hypocrites however is another story altogether. They are the only ones that should not have a say, when it comes to Preaching about God.
Arrogance. This is the worst human behaviour.
Kostas - I was just venting. Everybody has issues with church because it's comprised of fallible human beings.
Jordan - I hear you. However, we're all hypocrites to one degree or another.
Dreamer - if not THE worst, it's definitely right up there.
I wish I had time to read all the comments. Because I didn't, I don't know if I'm duplicating something already said. If so, I apologize.
I did see one by Steve who suggested asking God sincerely. I tried it, and found that there is a misconception about feeling the witness of the Holy Spirit. Most people say that the heart of man is evil, and you can't depend on it. Others say that Satan can appear as an angel of light. I think the two are separate. I don't think Satan can imitate the great Love and witnessing power of the Holy Ghost. Jesus said He was going to send the Holy Ghost to testify of truth. He talks to our heart, as described in many New Testament scriptures. If we can't depend on our hearts to listen, why promise to send the Holy Ghost?
I found that it is impossible for most of us to not be hypocrites. All are weak, imperfect and sinners, except Jesus. Jesus' church was perfect, but its members are not. Even Peter was called Satan by Jesus at one point. Also, Jesus associated with sinners, because "...the [healthy] need no physician."
Going to church doesn't save you. It's doing what you learn in church and from the Bible that assures you of peace of mind, and enriches your life on earth. Most people don't "DO" or implement. Therefore, they don't seem to find satisfaction in life. I'm not saying you don't. I'm saying this for the benefit of the readers who may happen to see this, to help them focus on what is important, in hopes that life in general may be improved around us.
Sambo - thans for your excellent comment. I really appreciate it.
Difficult to turn from humor to serious. Grab my other hat. I think it was Chesterson who said " It isn't that Christianity is tried and found wanting, it is found wanting and left untried. I know of nothing more corespondent to all the desires of my heart and mind than to Serve and love God. That I can measure my greatest disappointments, from His church, is evidence not of His failure, but, of the failure of His people to be His people. I remember the story of a grandfather and his grandson. "Why are people so mean?" the boy asked. "Because we all have two wolves living within and they are fighting for the food." said the old man. "Which one will win?" asked the boy. "The one we feed." said the old man. I've come to terms with church. I will not feed the one who comes to set me against it. I will, however, exercise greater discretion in identifying the dogs. Sometimes, food is easier to get at church!
It's strange that I've read so many of your hubs, Stan, but only found this one a year after you posted it. My reading of this hub coincides with my learning a short time ago about the U.S. Supreme Court's majority decision to allow those idiots in that fundamentalist Missouri "church", who troop out to military funerals and protest with nasty signs and jeering words while families are grieving, to continue doing it to protect their Constitutional rights.
I usually do not allow myself to get caught up into discussions (or arguments) about religion and try to do the same about politics (although I'm not as successful with the latter). However, I am extremely enraged about these holier-than-thou people who think they have the "right" to hurt anyone as long as THEY insist that "they know" it's what God wants!And I'm just as enraged at the Supreme Court Justices (except for the one who did not vote with the others). I believe the founding fathers of the U.S. Constitution would be horrified to learn their document is being used as the excuse to allow the monstrous actions of these faux Christians.
Beyond that, I won't comment any further on this topic, other than to say I hope you find the peace you seek, Stan. JAYE
Really great views here...this hub is to the point(s) and very interesting.
FiFi - although this hub is older, and I'm in a much better state of mind than when I wrote it, I stand by it.
I love the smell of a church. When I'm inside, I go back to an earlier time- it is always comforting. I am connected to the past. I feel you can find solace in a building, prayer, the unification of those that chooose to come together for the greater good of humanity. That is what most people are doing when they gather together to worship. It just feels good. Also, as an educator in some tough schools, I found the kids that were raised with organized religion (whatever the denomination) were better off--they had a self-assurance, a confidence, and manners. I believe it is reassuring for a small child to have the power of prayer. It makes them feel as if they can help, somehow. When you take all the credit for your achievements, you become high on yourself--omnipotent and dangerous. Divine intervention is ever present in our lives, and some people have the gift of drawing others to them. It is not a gift to be squandered. QB : )
Wow, Stan.
Wow.
I try like crazy to look to Jesus first in my most vulnerable moments. Over the course of my life, I've found a few other people worthy of emulation in this regard - my friend, Terrie, St. Francis of Assisi, Dorothy Day, and Rich Mullins. I'm adding you to the list.
Please be more careful with that filet knife next time you decide to filet yourself open for the sake of truth. Your aim is a little off, and I feel that you've done the same to me.
Wow.
Mo - I've pondered on your comment for 39 hours now and can't for the life of me decipher the meaning of your last sentence. Since I'm afraid I'm missing something important, I'll just ask. Could you run that by me again?
I can try. First, let me go on record as saying that I love the smell of church, but I'm Catholic, so for me, the smell of church is extinguished candles and wood wax. :-)
Second, it had to do with the conclusion of your hub (about most of your anger having been caused by one person) and later with part of a comment that you made:
"Back to honesty, I would rather just write funny hubs, but I thought it might be interesting to just filet myself open and let the rest of you watch me morph into who I will be."
Like Scripture often does, your hub happened to lay open a very deeply buried part of me by which I have been disgusted, with which I have been frustrated and angry, and of which I have been unable to let go. An event that happened nearly a year ago caused me no small amount of anger, bitterness, and has cost me a lot in terms of "church." This ex-nun who loves her Church for what it can be came to a point where she despised it for what it is - primarily because of one man.
That's what I meant. Your filet knife hit more than one of us. I was just trying to say it without laying myself as bare before your fans as you had. Sometimes, subtlety has a place. Maybe it would have just made more sense if I'd honestly said that right now I hate the Church, and like you, it's because of one person (well, in my case, three people encountered at different times over the course of 15 years). Admitting that to myself after I finished this hub was one of the most painful things I've ever experienced. Your #4,#7, and #10 are what hit me the hardest from the list. But, my reaction to it was far more powerful than I was prepared for.
Does it make any more sense?
Preachers who say, "God told me that we should ___________."
Is it true? I wonder.
Mo - I hear you. Just wanted to make sure I understood exactly what you meant. Thanks for the clarification.
Rocky - I think it is true - sometimes. Probably pretty rarely though. imo.
It's true rarely. But God can speak to anyone he desires. And it does not have to necessarily be a priest.
Matthew chapter 7 & 13
I particularly dislike Christians who believe they know what god intends. Great hub.
Well said.
In so many cases, church has become about our comforts rather than our responsibilities. Church is not a place or an event or a club or a business. It is a body of people who profess belief in Jesus. That body transcends buildings, cultures and geographical boundaries. With that belief that we all profess, comes the responsibility to help the hurting and speak truth into people's lives.
I read your hub about Waiting on God, so I know some of your bitterness seems to have abated a bit, but all of these issues you bring up here are no less valid.
I came across this interesting article a few months back. You might find it interesting as well:
Ha, funny stuff Stan but also, painfully true and from the heart, what more could a reader ask for? I am a recovering Catholic. As I tell my voodoo Christian mother, my "church" is anywhere outside where there are trees, flowers and animals around. I adhere to my spiritual instincts and that kind of heartfelt guidance of Gitchie Manitou. I have an affinity for John Muir and his leaving the Calvinist church to enter the real church outdoors.
I hope you have been able to regrow your faith my friend.
Ben
Isn't it funny that no man outside of Christ did or could have laid down his life to save ours, yet nearly any man can lead you away from the Man who did? Don't go to church anymore, if that's what you feel. But the Bible is the only way to receive "instant text messages," from God regarding his living and present thoughts toward you.
It's been what, two years since you wrote this? I hope that your testimony has changed. I hope that you are madly in love and grateful to the God who is madly in love and grateful for you.
I have been there!!! but honestly I think u need to root out this deep pain with Jesus one on one..Unfortunatley,, people are imperfect and they hurt u but all thru the bible u see Gods love for
His people and his people is
The church... If u hate then u don't have godly love for ur family..and God is love and if we soak in the vine we cannot help but to feel love for others..We should grieve for the house of God being so cold!!! I'm blessed with a great
Church but we are not without our imperfections!! But I'm praying for u cause I feel like u cannot drop this hate and it's stopping u from seeing people with Gods eyes!! And Gods purpose for u may be to be the original person that shakes up this yuck state of the church.. He will direct ur anger and turn it into passion... U have a purpose don't let focusing on people ruin it!! Break thru brother and I know where u are I was once there myself but it's better on the other side.
A M Werner Level 4 Commenter 2 years ago
Stan, your honesty is forthright and understandable. For almost all the reasons you named here, we have Home Assembly. There is no "holy" building to maintain, no fortress or intolerance. There is no indifference to what is being taught because it is Spirit-led and all have a voice. The direction of the wind can take it anyway it needs to go at anytime. And last - that #10, that is a big one. So many churches are worried about what is happening halfway around the world when the Lord put needy people right there in the houses beside one another. I pray you find and regain the faith you took into be a pastor once before. He has not failed you - just an organization of people trying to fleece sheep. Peace.